Ticket #17202: rxvt-unicode.txt

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To: Marc Lehmann <rxvt@schmorp.de>
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From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:34:32 -0600


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Hello!

rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive  
filesystems, like the one that most Mac OS X users use, because there  
is a file in your distribution called "INSTALL" which "make" tries to  
make, instead of installing:

make: `install' is up to date.

You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target. You may as  
well mark all your other phony targets too, for clarity.

The attached patch is what we're using in MacPorts to work around  
this problem; you could apply it to your sources so Mac users not  
using MacPorts, and other users of case-insensitive filesystems, can  
benefit too.

-Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts Project



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--- Makefile.in 2008-02-22 10:32:28.000000000 -0600
+++ Makefile.in 2008-11-10 16:25:02.000000000 -0600
@@ -32,6 +32,8 @@
 
 RECURSIVE_TARGETS = all allbin alldoc tags clean distclean realclean install
 
+.PHONY: Makefiles all allbin alldoc check clean distclean distclean-local distdir install realclean tags tar.bz2 tar.gz
+
 #-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 $(RECURSIVE_TARGETS):

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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:11:42 +0100
From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>
To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems
Message-ID: <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de>
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 04:34:32PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote:
> rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive  
> filesystems,

rxvt-unicode is designed for POSIX systems only, I cannot support
non-posix systems at this time.

> You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target.

There is no bug, so how can there be anything to fix?

-- 
                The choice of a       Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG
      -----==-     _GNU_              http://www.deliantra.net
      ----==-- _       generation
      ---==---(_)__  __ ____  __      Marc Lehmann
      --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /      pcg@goof.com
      -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\



============================================================================



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From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:01:44 -0600
To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>


On Nov 10, 2008, at 21:11, Marc Lehmann wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 04:34:32PM -0600, Ryan Schmidt wrote:
>
>> rxvt-unicode's "make install" does not work on case-insensitive
>> filesystems,
>
> rxvt-unicode is designed for POSIX systems only, I cannot support
> non-posix systems at this time.
>
>> You can fix this by marking "install" as a phony target.
>
> There is no bug, so how can there be anything to fix?

Ah! Sorry, we seem to have gotten off to a bad start. I didn't mean  
to upset you or disparage your software. I merely wanted to point out  
that it does not build on case-insensitive filesystems out of the  
box, and the simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most  
popular operating system in the world [1], behind Windows, so it is a  
good idea for you to support its default filesystem. I don't know  
much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says Mac OS X Leopard  
is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to the SUSv3  
and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2]. Since Windows is not POSIX, that  
makes Mac OS X the most popular POSIX operating system in the world.  
Besides, indicating your phony targets is a recommended Makefile  
practice anyway (it improves performance) [3].

-Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project


[1] http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

[2] http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html

[3] http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/make/Phony-Targets.html



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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:31:38 +0100
From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>
To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive
        filesystems
Message-ID: <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de>
References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org>
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        <schmorp@schmorp.de>       Key fingerprint = 475A FE9B D1D4 039E
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> simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most popular operating 
> system in the world [1],
   
apple is atcively hurtign free sofwtare, I see no reason to waste additional
time to help them.
   
> behind Windows, so it is a good idea for you to 
> support its default filesystem.

That is very faulty logic.

> I don't know much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says Mac OS X
> Leopard is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to the
> SUSv3 and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2].

Then there is no issue with urxvt, as POSIX *requires* a case-sensitive
filesystem.

So much for marketing bullshit from apple, OS X is as much posix as
windows (which also claims posix compliance).

> Since Windows is not POSIX,

Since when? Windows is POSIX ever since windows nt.

> that makes Mac OS X the 

So windows isn't POSIX (while microsoft claims it is), while OS
X obviously isn't (because it can't build software relying on a
case-sensitive filesystem).

You seem to be an extremely bad-informed OS X fanboy.

The fact remains, that urxvt has no issue on POSIX systems. It apparemtly
has an issue on OS X systems, so all talk about it being posix is just
bullshit.

-- 
                The choice of a       Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG
      -----==-     _GNU_              http://www.deliantra.net
      ----==-- _       generation
      ---==---(_)__  __ ____  __      Marc Lehmann
      --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /      pcg@goof.com
      -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\



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From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:15:38 -0600
To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>

On Nov 11, 2008, at 07:31, Marc Lehmann wrote:

>> simple fix to make it work. Mac OS X is the second most popular  
>> operating
>> system in the world [1],
>
> apple is atcively hurtign free sofwtare, I see no reason to waste  
> additional
> time to help them.
>
>> behind Windows, so it is a good idea for you to
>> support its default filesystem.
>
> That is very faulty logic.
>
>> I don't know much about what is or is not POSIX, but Apple says  
>> Mac OS X
>> Leopard is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product, conforming to  
>> the
>> SUSv3 and POSIX 1003.1 specifications [2].
>
> Then there is no issue with urxvt, as POSIX *requires* a case- 
> sensitive
> filesystem.
>
> So much for marketing bullshit from apple, OS X is as much posix as
> windows (which also claims posix compliance).
>
>> Since Windows is not POSIX,
>
> Since when? Windows is POSIX ever since windows nt.
>
>> that makes Mac OS X the
>
> So windows isn't POSIX (while microsoft claims it is), while OS
> X obviously isn't (because it can't build software relying on a
> case-sensitive filesystem).
>
> You seem to be an extremely bad-informed OS X fanboy.
>
> The fact remains, that urxvt has no issue on POSIX systems. It  
> apparemtly
> has an issue on OS X systems, so all talk about it being posix is just
> bullshit.

Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for. I'm  
providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't  
understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards  
Mac OS X. I'm writing to you not to have a discussion about the  
relative merits or specifications of different operating systems, but  
in my capacity as manager of MacPorts, a package management system  
which aims to make it easier for Mac users to install open source  
software. As such, I have an interest in making software like yours  
work well on the Mac. Are you really opposed to that? Do you really  
want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential users?

My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use  
Windows. I assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory  
Google search, the fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list  
of fully POSIX compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is) [1],  
and the fact that, if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria  
for POSIX compliance, Windows also uses a case-insensitive  
filesystem, doesn't it? I'm sure you can optionally use a case- 
sensitive filesystem on Windows, just like you can on Mac OS X, but  
as far as I know the default filesystem on Windows is case- 
insensitive, just like Mac OS X's.

I don't know what else to tell you. If you have problems with the way  
Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with  
them. But insulting me is not constructive.

I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your  
Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users,  
and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a  
slight performance boost).

-Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#Fully_POSIX-compliant



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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:01:52 +0100
From: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>
To: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive
        filesystems
Message-ID: <20081111150152.GA3864@schmorp.de>
References: <09721773-3FFE-467A-9C04-2EADAAEE5026@macports.org> <20081111031142.GA2695@schmorp.de> <E537420B-EB90-4359-B2DE-85A8B79429B8@macports.org> <20081111133138.GA3121@schmorp.de> <93F7B3AB-E0CD-4E5F-B086-571F169CF153@macports.org>
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On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 08:15:38AM -0600, Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote:
> Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for.

Where am I rude? By pointint out that you are bullshitting me?

> I'm providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't
> understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards
> Mac OS X.

I am hostile because I call your bluff?

After tzhis, I am sure you can't be convinced by logics, as obviously, the
apple marketing department rules your brain.

Just a few facts for you, think about them:

- windows has supported case-sensitive filenames in the *default* install
  since windows nt.
- beginning with windows xp, *all* supported installs and configrations
  support case-sensitive filenames when using the posix api.

This already completely obliterates your false claimt hat os x would be the
#1 posix complaint operatign system. It gets better:

The fact thyt you cannot compile urxvt on your OS X system means it isn't
posix compliant.

That's a simple fact.

This doesn't mean OS X in general isn't POSIX compliant, but you have to ask
yourself why *your* installation isn't.

And the answer is that apple doesn't support POSIX configurations for OS X
(and the default installs delivered by apple aren't).

Which in turn means that the number of *actually* POSIX compliant
configurations of OS X is about zero.

This emans that OS X is probably one of the *least* used posix-compliant
operating system, with a market share nearing zero.

> writing to you not to have a discussion about the relative merits or 
> specifications of different operating systems, but in my capacity as 
> manager of MacPorts, a package management system which aims to make it 
> easier for Mac users to install open source software.

That's bullshit. You are writing to me because you want to help apple
increase their market share by offering superior sofwtare such as
rxvt-unicode, and maybe to ease your life.

It is trivial for macports to apply local workarounds for *local* bugs in the
opertaing system or configuration, or to port urxvt to a non-POSIX operating
system/environment.

I have zero time to waste on supporting non-standards compliant systems,
especially not due to bullshit arguments about market share, or about bugs
in my sofwtare, when in fact the bug is easily verified to be in your
setup or OS.

> As such, I have an 
> interest in making software like yours work well on the Mac.

I don't.

> Are you really opposed to that?

I'd love to be able to do something against in fatc, but that's
irrelevant. rxvt-unicode does require a marginally POSIX-compliant
enviornment, which OS X apparently fdoes not provide.

> Do you really want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential
> users?

Well, you said OS X was posix compliant, so there really is no issue after
all, as the Makefile *already* works fine in such an anvironment.

> My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use Windows. I 
> assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory Google search, the 
> fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list of fully POSIX 
> compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is)
   
Teaches you a lesson about not trusting wikipedia. I am supsrised it has
this level of misinformation, but that's not really an excuse.

> if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria for POSIX compliance, 
> Windows also uses a case-insensitive filesystem, doesn't it?

Nope, NTFS, the only supported filesystem for the system since XP, is fully
case-sensitive.

As usual, windows is far ahead of OS X.

> I'm sure you can optionally use a case-sensitive filesystem on Windows,
> just like you can on Mac OS X, but as far as I know the default
> filesystem on Windows is case-insensitive, just like Mac OS X's.

The default install provides a fully case-sensitive filesystem (NTFS)
for posix programs. Unlike OS X, which apparently doesn't even support
case-sensitivity for e.g. / (where /dev resides).

> I don't know what else to tell you.

Nothing, you have nothing to tlel me, because your knowledge about these
issues is obviously almost nonexistant. I suggest you get a perspective
on these issues, and stop pestering sofwtare maintaienrs about "bugs" in
their sofwtare which are just caused because your shitty OS only supports
standards in marketing brochures as oppposed to the real world.

> If you have problems with the way  
> Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with them. 

So youc na come pester me by parroting marketing lies, and when I
disagree, you suddenly aren't the right person to go to?

*You* were misrepresentign the apple OS grossly in your mails, and of
course, that's your fault and not apple's. And of coruse, *you* are
responsible for what you claim, not apple.

Moving the responsibility for your mails to apple is highly unfair to
them.

> But insulting me is not constructive.

I am just pointing out facts. Your facts are bullshit, I didnt insult
you, personally. I did point out that you don't understand what you are
talking about, which is another fact, no?

Facts might be insulting, yes, but then, you represented bullshit as if it
were facts, and as such, I do feel insulted by your behaviour.

> I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your  
> Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users,  
> and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a slight 
> performance boost).

It wastes my time on a non-issue, and as such hinders my ability to write
high quality sofwtare for *other* people.

Your claim that it doesn't hinder others is only true if you completely
disregard my work and my efforts.

May I remind you that rxvt-unicode and most or all of the macports software
is written by volunteers like me? Pestering me with bugs in your OS instead
of fixing them or working around them greatly hinders me in doing this.

You are hurting free software development. As such, you are certainly in the
lowest class of people I recoginise.

-- 
                The choice of a       Deliantra, the free code+content MORPG
      -----==-     _GNU_              http://www.deliantra.net
      ----==-- _       generation
      ---==---(_)__  __ ____  __      Marc Lehmann
      --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /      pcg@goof.com
      -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\



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From: Ryan Schmidt <ryandesign@macports.org>
Subject: Re: rxvt-unicode make install on Mac OS X/case-insensitive filesystems
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:45:39 -0600
To: Marc Lehmann <schmorp@schmorp.de>

On Nov 11, 2008, at 09:01, Marc Lehmann wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 08:15:38AM -0600, Ryan Schmidt  
> <ryandesign@macports.org> wrote:
>> Marc, you're being remarkably rude to me, and it's uncalled for.
>
> Where am I rude? By pointint out that you are bullshitting me?
>
>> I'm providing constructive feedback for your software and I don't
>> understand why you're so hostile towards that, towards me and towards
>> Mac OS X.
>
> I am hostile because I call your bluff?
>
> After tzhis, I am sure you can't be convinced by logics, as  
> obviously, the
> apple marketing department rules your brain.
>
> Just a few facts for you, think about them:
>
> - windows has supported case-sensitive filenames in the *default*  
> install
>   since windows nt.
> - beginning with windows xp, *all* supported installs and  
> configrations
>   support case-sensitive filenames when using the posix api.
>
> This already completely obliterates your false claimt hat os x  
> would be the
> #1 posix complaint operatign system. It gets better:
>
> The fact thyt you cannot compile urxvt on your OS X system means it  
> isn't
> posix compliant.
>
> That's a simple fact.
>
> This doesn't mean OS X in general isn't POSIX compliant, but you  
> have to ask
> yourself why *your* installation isn't.
>
> And the answer is that apple doesn't support POSIX configurations  
> for OS X
> (and the default installs delivered by apple aren't).
>
> Which in turn means that the number of *actually* POSIX compliant
> configurations of OS X is about zero.
>
> This emans that OS X is probably one of the *least* used posix- 
> compliant
> operating system, with a market share nearing zero.
>
>> writing to you not to have a discussion about the relative merits or
>> specifications of different operating systems, but in my capacity as
>> manager of MacPorts, a package management system which aims to  
>> make it
>> easier for Mac users to install open source software.
>
> That's bullshit. You are writing to me because you want to help apple
> increase their market share by offering superior sofwtare such as
> rxvt-unicode, and maybe to ease your life.
>
> It is trivial for macports to apply local workarounds for *local*  
> bugs in the
> opertaing system or configuration, or to port urxvt to a non-POSIX  
> operating
> system/environment.
>
> I have zero time to waste on supporting non-standards compliant  
> systems,
> especially not due to bullshit arguments about market share, or  
> about bugs
> in my sofwtare, when in fact the bug is easily verified to be in your
> setup or OS.
>
>> As such, I have an
>> interest in making software like yours work well on the Mac.
>
> I don't.
>
>> Are you really opposed to that?
>
> I'd love to be able to do something against in fatc, but that's
> irrelevant. rxvt-unicode does require a marginally POSIX-compliant
> enviornment, which OS X apparently fdoes not provide.
>
>> Do you really want to actively exclude tens of millions of potential
>> users?
>
> Well, you said OS X was posix compliant, so there really is no  
> issue after
> all, as the Makefile *already* works fine in such an anvironment.
>
>> My apologies for my misinformation about Windows; I don't use  
>> Windows. I
>> assumed it was not POSIX compliant based on a cursory Google  
>> search, the
>> fact that it is not listed in the Wikipedia's list of fully POSIX
>> compliant operating systems (whereas Mac OS X is)
>
> Teaches you a lesson about not trusting wikipedia. I am supsrised  
> it has
> this level of misinformation, but that's not really an excuse.
>
>> if a case-insensitive filesystem is your criteria for POSIX  
>> compliance,
>> Windows also uses a case-insensitive filesystem, doesn't it?
>
> Nope, NTFS, the only supported filesystem for the system since XP,  
> is fully
> case-sensitive.
>
> As usual, windows is far ahead of OS X.
>
>> I'm sure you can optionally use a case-sensitive filesystem on  
>> Windows,
>> just like you can on Mac OS X, but as far as I know the default
>> filesystem on Windows is case-insensitive, just like Mac OS X's.
>
> The default install provides a fully case-sensitive filesystem (NTFS)
> for posix programs. Unlike OS X, which apparently doesn't even support
> case-sensitivity for e.g. / (where /dev resides).
>
>> I don't know what else to tell you.
>
> Nothing, you have nothing to tlel me, because your knowledge about  
> these
> issues is obviously almost nonexistant. I suggest you get a  
> perspective
> on these issues, and stop pestering sofwtare maintaienrs about  
> "bugs" in
> their sofwtare which are just caused because your shitty OS only  
> supports
> standards in marketing brochures as oppposed to the real world.
>
>> If you have problems with the way
>> Apple represents their operating system, you can take it up with  
>> them.
>
> So youc na come pester me by parroting marketing lies, and when I
> disagree, you suddenly aren't the right person to go to?
>
> *You* were misrepresentign the apple OS grossly in your mails, and of
> course, that's your fault and not apple's. And of coruse, *you* are
> responsible for what you claim, not apple.
>
> Moving the responsibility for your mails to apple is highly unfair to
> them.
>
>> But insulting me is not constructive.
>
> I am just pointing out facts. Your facts are bullshit, I didnt insult
> you, personally. I did point out that you don't understand what you  
> are
> talking about, which is another fact, no?
>
> Facts might be insulting, yes, but then, you represented bullshit  
> as if it
> were facts, and as such, I do feel insulted by your behaviour.
>
>> I request you apply my earlier patch to your sources to declare your
>> Makefile targets as phony. It is a best practice, it helps Mac users,
>> and it does not hinder others (if anything, it helps others, in a  
>> slight
>> performance boost).
>
> It wastes my time on a non-issue, and as such hinders my ability to  
> write
> high quality sofwtare for *other* people.
>
> Your claim that it doesn't hinder others is only true if you  
> completely
> disregard my work and my efforts.
>
> May I remind you that rxvt-unicode and most or all of the macports  
> software
> is written by volunteers like me? Pestering me with bugs in your OS  
> instead
> of fixing them or working around them greatly hinders me in doing  
> this.
>
> You are hurting free software development. As such, you are  
> certainly in the
> lowest class of people I recoginise.

Thank you for your time, it's been interesting. I'll add a note to  
the rxvt-unicode portfile that we should not contact you about it  
again. Have a nice day.

-Ryan Schmidt, for the MacPorts project